Romanians! How do you declare your income? (2016)

Envato Authors Author Hangout
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If this is implemented. Romanians will lose 10% of their income. We are lucky. There are authors from other countries that will lose even 30%. Of the approximately 120 countries. We are in the 60 “winners”. Because we have a treaty signed in 1970 with the United States.

I think it’s a bad decision made by Envato. My reasons and other 1000 people reasons are here:
https://forums.envato.com/t/important-changes-for-non-us-authors-affiliates-service-providers/

UPDATE : Read below! This fee can be deduct from our taxes.

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I think this has gone a little bit off topic here…

Regarding the new announcement. Will we be able to recover those 10% from our tax authorities?
Or how does this work?

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I do not think we can recover the 10%. It’s not really clear how this thing works. I hope this will not be implemented. And … this decision will affect quality products here.

UPDATE : Read below! This fee can be deduct from our taxes.

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I have a PFA with CAEN 6201 and 6202.

An accountant told me that the Envato invoices are not valid.

She said invoices must have serial numbers (one after each other) and must contain valid data of buyers. Which is not always the case, because some buyers do not use real data.

Also, an Envato invoice cannot be used because it states the money you receive before Envato deducts the author fee.

So an invoice shows I receive for an item $12.80 paid via PayPal, but in fact in my bank account, I receive only $9.44. So it would be a difference between the invoice and the bank statement, which can be called “evaziune fiscala” or “fals in acte”

Another question of mine is what CAEN do you use if you are a PFA selling items on Envato? 6201, 6202? Another one? Or you use some other form of income declaration for “intelectual rights” (drepturi de autor) ?

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I have CAEN 6201 and 7410 .
Invoices not have the exact shape in Romania. I know the law changed in 2012. You can use any shape. http://codfiscal.net/38825/factura-fiscala-informatii-obligatorii-conditii-optiuni

Envato invoice number is your serial number is unique, and is in the corner under the date. You make an internal paper in which specific this things. Yes put bills them on the entire value. And author fee put at your “purchases” and deduct this expenses from profit . If you do not have in your account bill for Author Fee, call for this at Envato. Envato bills also helps to not pay VAT in Romania for EU customers. If you do not have an annual turnover of EUR 65,000 know that does not pay VAT if you do not declare. But if you exceed this number (65 000) you need Envato Invoices http://www.mediafax.ro/economic/pragul-afacerilor-peste-care-pfa-si-microintreprinderile-trebuie-sa-achite-tva-creste-la-65-000-euro-9687646

image
author-view---item-purchase-invoice-v2.png883×912 172 KB

Many accountants are old in Romania or are comfortable. And many accountant they told me as not possible. But multinationals doing business in Romania use the same invoice.

This is not tax evasion . " Prin evaziune fiscală se înțelege sustragerea de la plata impozitelor și a altor sume datorate bugetului de stat. " If I declare that is my name “thezoc” and give fictitious address is not your job. You’ve paid your taxes for that bill. This your job . The state wants your taxes do not care what it says on the invoices. You’re not a detective to see if the address is real.

Your taxes are important. No bill looks …

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Butt probably things will look different with Envato bills after W8-BEN (1 Jan. 2016) . I do not know how the 10% will be mentioned in the invoice for “Uncle Sam” .

UPDATE : Read below! This fee can be inferred from our taxes.

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Hey :smile:

I pretty much got the same answer from my accountant and i still am invoicing envato at the end of the month.
FYI, on a srl, i am using 6201 CAEN as well.

Ty.

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@thezoc - Have you spoken to your accountant? Maybe we can contact him as well, how about a phone number via PM or an email address ?

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Normally for every bill you cut must pay taxes . If you cut bills like crazy, the state wins. Because he gets your money for each bill. Even if you have not received it yet. Nobody cares what you sell and to whom you sell.

Illegal is next case is reverse process : If I recorded bill for a fictional service. To pry money from the company/pfa and not to pay taxes. I say I bought one car but it’s only on paper to escape taxes by deducting profit . This is illegal. It’s when you remove money from the company to escape taxes. But cut bills you bring money into the company/pfa. So the state win.

It is easier to explain in Romanian language for Romanians :grinning: : In Romania se face foarte des confuzia ce e aia evaziune fiscala si ce nu e . Evaziunea fiscala reprezinta inversul procesului discutat aici si anume sustragerea de la plata taxelor, iar de la sine aceast fapt penal in savarsirea ei aduce si alte infractiuni : delapidare, “spalare de bani”, fals si uz de fals, etc .
Un exemplu simplu de caz ilegal este daca tu introduci in companie (contabilitate) o factura care iti e adresata tie, de la o firma care nu exista, sau care nu a emis acea factura, ori care nu presteaza acele servicii pentru a iti deduce taxe si impozite din profitul tau . Aceasta e o operatiune fictiva ce are ca scop fraudarea bugetului de stat si/ori delapidarea companiei .

Dar sa luam exemplu de fata daca eu vin la tine si cumpar un produs online (in online e obligatoriu factura nu casa de marcat) si iti dau pentru facturare niste date fictive, tu nu produci nici un act ilegal, pentru ca in contabilitate tu vei inregistra vanzarea acelui produs/serviciu si automat statul va colecta taxele pentru produsul vandut/prestat de tine. Legea nu te obliga ca tu sa ii soliciti un document legal pentru validarea identitatii celui ce ii emiti factura sau sa faci pe detectivul pentru ca in Romania s-ar bate cap in cap cu legea 677/2001 prvind datele cu caracter personal iar tu ca si client ai dreptul la o viata privata deci te-ar putea da in judecata pe baza legii 554/2004. :smile: ( Intr-adevar daca in cadrul unei relatii comerciale exista un contract intre cele 2 parti, atunci pentru validarea platii pe factura trebuie sa se gasesca datele din contract. ) Indiferent daca tu vei primii sau nu vreodata banii de la client tu va trebui sa platesti acele taxe din moment ce ai eliberat o factura . Deci nimeni nu are interes sa elibereze facturi fictive si sa aduca bani in companie care nu exista pentru ca el va trebui sa plateasca taxe pentru acele facturi din propriul buzunar, daca nu a incasat banii respectivi. Deci statul castiga. Singura persoana care pierde daca da date fictive este clientul pentru ca el nu va putea folosi factura la nimic . Facturile oferite de Envato contit toate elementele necesare ca factura sa fie considerata valida in Romania . Se face o hartie interna la infintarea firmei sau pfa care o atasezi la dosarul cu acte prin care specifici si descrii modul prin care aceste facturi sunt inseriate/numerotate . ( […] trebuie să emită proceduri proprii de stabilire şi/sau alocare de numere sau serii, pentru fiecare exerciţiu financiar, iar în decizia internă se va menţiona care este numărul sau seria de la care se emite primul document. ) http://www.cabinetexpert.ro/2013-01-04/decizie-alocare-serie-si-numar-pentru-facturi-chitante-avize-incepand-cu-01-01-2013-model-orientativ.html

Falsul si uzul de fals e atunci cand tu voit modifici/adaugi documente pentru a avea beneficii materiale sau de alta natura. Este speculat foarte clar in lege acest lucru. Care e beneficiul aici? Ca platesti taxe pentru niste bani care nu exista ? :smirk:

Mai sus s-a facut precizare la faptul ca tu tai 1000 facturi intr-o luna de la Envato dar banii intra la sfarsitul lunii toti odata in contul tau . Aceasta echilibrare de sold in contabilitate se va face printr-o balanta analitica de catre contabilul tau. Si putin stres la un audit al ANAF sa le explici functionarilor. Ca unii sunt mai primitivi si au ramas acele facturiere tipizate cu cotor . De exemplu daca tu ai un magazin online in Romania si ai procesarea de plati cu cardul, bani iti vin la sfarsit de luna in contul tau de la o alta entitate ce colecteaza acesti bani cum ar fi MobilPay, PayU, sau alti .

Mai sus s-a facut referire la faptul ca introduci in contabilitate facturi cu 10% mai mult. Da, intr-adevar aceste facturi sunt la valoarea reala a produsului, acest lucru nu te afecteaza foarte mult. Pentru ca la sfarsit de luna Envato elibereaza o factura “author fee” pentru ca tu teoretic ai platit acest serviciu catre Envato (chiar daca el a fost retinut automat). Introducand aceasta factura in contabilitate automat tu iti vei deduce acesti bani din profitul tau . Iti trebuie niste declaratii pe la ANAF pentru a putea inregistra sau elibera facturi in U.E sau tarile Non UE . Nu mai stiu care sunt .

In principiu aceste procese sunt foarte simple, si legea e interpretabila. Tre sa gasesti un contabil creativ nu din acela care tine pe hartie cu creionul in registre invetarul si facturile :sweat_smile: . Ci unul care a lucrat cu companii internationale sau cu multe sucursale si are afaceri in online .

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Am zis sa fac un exercitiu de sambata seara si impreuna cu prietena mea, am scos, aranjat gata de dat la contabil, facturile de pe 12 septembrie pana pe 30 septembrie, deci facturi pe vanzarile pe 18 zile.
Priveste si minuneaza-te:

Pai intr-o luna intrega o sa am cel putin dublu.
Tu-mi spui ca asa faci si tu, mergi cu asa ceva la contabil in fiecare luna?
Si contabilul mai traieste, e okay ?

Da, am gasit aia intr-un sfarsit.

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Salut, dar nu e nevoie sa le printezi . Eu le trimit prin dropbox :sunglasses: . Tu iti imaginezi ca un magazin ca Emag, Metro, Selgross or others… ar trebuii sa aiba o cladire doar pentru a depozita facturi?

Citeste articolul asta despre lege : http://codfiscal.net/38825/factura-fiscala-informatii-obligatorii-conditii-optiuni

-utilizarea facturii electronice face obiectul acceptării de către destinatar. Acceptul clientului de a utiliza factura electronică reprezintă confirmarea acestuia că deţine mijloacele tehnice necesare primirii facturii electronice, precum şi că are capacitatea de a asigura autenticitatea originii, integritatea conţinutului şi lizibilitatea facturii;
- pentru ca o factură să fie considerată factură electronică, aceasta trebuie să fie emisă şi primită în format electronic, tipul formatului electronic al facturii fiind opţiunea persoanelor impozabile. Formatul electronic al unei facturi poate fi, de exemplu, de tip .xml sau .pdf;

Exista programe de gestiune pentru formatul pdf, xml pe care le are contabilul, de asemenea stiu ca are si un layout/patern creat exact pe baza formatului facturi ce genereaza automat o copie electronica a facturii tradusa in Romana.

Facturile sunt necesare doar la un audit din partea ANAF-ului, tu depui lunar, trimestril sau anual ( in functie de cum ai societatea / pfa ) doar niste declaratii . Nu iti cere nimeni facturi . Daca cumva la un control reprezentantul ANAF face figuri de format electronic, (care in fapt il ajuta si pe el) le listezi si depui declaratie ca te vei prezenta cu camionul de facturi la sediul ANAF (glumesc) iti va specifica el exact pe ce perioada are nevoie de facturi printate.

Stiu ca unul dintre programele utilizate de contabilul meu e acesta ca il vad in bottom page la fiecare balanta analitica generata http://www.ciel.ro .

Am avut pe firma un singur control, intr-adevar a trebuit sa le explic cam 1 ora sa inteleaga, si nu au fost probleme . Iar de cand am PFA nu au fost controale .

Succes !

UPDATE : Stiu ca imi explica contabilul ca daca ma intreaba (dar nu m-au intrebat ca s-au uitat doar pe rapoarte) de ce au intrat mai putini bani in cont decat factura (ma refer la acel envato author fees) sa le precizez ca e suma retinuta la sursa pentru evitarea comisioanelor bancare si sa le arat facturile pentru author fees . Adica ei uitanduse doar la soldurile finale de pe hartie fiind exact cat trebuie .

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@thezoc Thanks so much for you detailed replies (I write in English so that the topic not become closed)

Until now, I did not have an accountant, my monthly income from Envato was not that big. I only ask for advises from time to time from my husband’s accountant…

I know this form of entity (PFA…its main idea is to be able to handle things by yourself, even without an accountant but as far as I see, this becomes impossible without hiring an accountant (especially from 2016 with all these Envato changes).

One more thing: people are mentioning author fee invoices. How come you receive such invoices? For every sale, I only receive in my Statement page an invoice for that sale. At at the end of the month, no other invoices. You have to specifically ask for them to Envato (where?)?

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Salut,

Pentru venituri mici nu vad scopul deschiderii unei societati comerciale, mai ales ca procedura este extrem de complicata pt contabilii “de rand”.

** Veniturile din activităţi dependente desfăşurate în străinătate şi plătite de un angajator nerezident nu sunt impozabile în România, potrivit prevederilor Codului fiscal, nu se declară şi nu fac obiectul creditului fiscal extern.

Sursa:

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@greenline I apologize because I had written in Romanian. I hope this topic not become closed . :smile:

For author fee, invoices are monthly. More details can be found here :
https://help.market.envato.com/hc/en-us/articles/203815214-An-Author-s-Guide-to-Your-Statement-Documents ( I’ve posted this link and above.)

  1. Click the ‘View Monthly Invoice’ drop down and select the month you wish to view.
  2. Click ‘Download’ on the right. The monthly service fee invoice will open in a new tab.
  3. Details the total author fees for the month.
  4. Details the SWIFT fees charged. SWIFT fees will appear on the invoice for the month the withdrawal is processed (paid), not the month the withdrawal was requested.

Right, for PFA is not necessarily an accountant. If you have low income I do not think this solutions are helpful. I still hope at 1 Jan. 2016 Envato not implement W8-BEN . Normally that 10% we do not can deduce from our tax . I have no idea how this will be stated on the Envato invoice. This money are for “Uncle Sam” . This tax is not under this treaty : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_taxation . At example EU VAT is under this treaty. Personally and other people have given commercial and law solutions for Envato and arguments why this move is not good for authors . We are lucky because in 1974 we signed a commercial treaty with America, but are other 120 countries that will lose 30% of the money from U.S. .

In my opinion Envato have multiple solutions to avoid this fee and I detailed here:

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Yes “Statement 201” is the simplest solution. But if you have more than 65 000 Euro annual turnover the best solution is to use Envato bills. We said all possibilities here because maybe are other people interested for this subject in Romania. I hope this topic help others people in the future.

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Dear Romanians,

I found more information about this W8. We can recover from our income tax 10% for U.S. sales . So for sales in U.S. we only pay 6% tax, not 16% . Romania have a double taxation treaty with the United States of America from 1976 and is still valid.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/romania.pdf also you find this in our language on ANAF website https://static.anaf.ro/static/10/Anaf/Contribuabili/Alte_informatii/SUA.htm

Read ARTICLE 21 also you can find it translate in romanian on ANAF website :

(1) In accordance with the provisions and subject to the limitations of the law of Romania (as it may be amended from time to time without changing the general principles hereof), Romania shall allow to a citizen or resident of Romania as a credit against Romanian tax the appropriate amount of income taxes paid to the United States. Such appropriate amount shall be based upon the amount of tax paid to the United States but shall not exceed the portion of Romanian tax which such citizen’s or resident’s net income from sources within the United States bears to his entire net income for the same taxable year.

This Article 21 in romanian language from ANAF website :

(1) În conformitate cu prevederile şi limitările legilor României (astfel cum pot fi modificate din când în când, fără a se schimba principiile generale din acestea), România va acorda unui cetăţean sau rezident al României, ca un credit fata de impozitul român, suma corespunzătoare a impozitelor pe venit plătite Statelor Unite. Suma corespunzătoare ca atare se va întemeia pe suma impozitului plătit Statelor Unite, dar nu va depăşi partea impozitului român pe care venitul net al cetăţenilor sau rezidenţilor din surse situate în Statele Unite le suportă asupra întregului venit pentru acelaşi an impozabil.

Forums in Romania have discussions about this topic :


http://www.avocatnet.ro/content/forum|displayTopicPage/topicID_470658/Impozit-venituri-SUA-vanzare-fotografie-stock.html

To deduct that tax, Envato must give us at the end of the month or year a document proving payment of that tax. It is very simple . We just need at ANAF to do the proof that I paid the fee in U.S. .

Good luck to all.

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@thezoc You should charge a fee for the consultancy for Romanian authors :)) I’m joking, but thanks a lot for these!

In one of the forums you mentioned, they say about a “certificat despre dubla impozitare, tradus si legalizat”. Anyone knows from where you can get something like that?

PS: I definetely have to change the accountant…

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Hahaha. :grinning: I have three accounts here and the next month it is time to launch a super product (Wordpress Theme) on this account . Probably one of the most complete theme in the world. I worked at it one year / 12-16 hours on day :sweat: , and this subject interested me. :sunglasses:

So back to the topic. All it’s very simple . “Certificatul de dubla impozitare” is Form 1042-S, Envato will be provide this at the end of the year . Collis said that right now : […] On the second question, at the end of the year we’ll provide you with a Form 1042-S showing your total US sales and any WHT deducted. […] Read the last post by Collis. Going to translate this certificate at “traducator legalizat”, exactly as customs bills for dutty tax . It’s not very expensive translate this (cateva zeci de RON) . And we will probably submit this with Form 201 at ANAF . I should ask the accountant or I go these days on the ANAF and I write here exactly steps .

Attention! TIN for PFA Romanians is CNP not CUI !

P.S. We would need to thank Ceausescu and Manea Manescu for this agreement with U.S. :joy: Si totusi m-am intrebat cat si ce si cine exporta pe timpul lui Ceausescu in America de a fost nevoie de un agrement ca acesta in perioada comunista.

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Today I was at the ANAF. And we talked again about that W8-BEN. Short conclusion is that: money can be deduced from profit tax. Operation lady from ANAF was in total fog. :sweat_smile: But showing him the “law” and said that “Yes it is possible” .
I have not seen accountant, yet!
If I was helpful, you can nominate me here:

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@thezoc - thanks for all this info.

Btw, i end up by changing the accounting team :smile:

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