Envato Support Expiration Destabilize Whole Market

Envato Authors Theme Authors
41

Wow so many words in this thread!

The new support system is good for buyers. Prior to that, item support was extremely unclear/inconsistent/nonexistent. Now buyers know exactly what they are getting (a supported item or a non-supported item). Buyers overall are much more confident and happy with what they are purchasing. (not all buyers of course, but the majority are happy. How do I know? We all make thousands of sales and only get a tiny handful of vocal buyers complaining about the support policy. Most are comfortable with it, those who are not comfortable with it still end up buying stuff anyway :slight_smile: haha)

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42

I agree that Template*******.com is really uncomparable to envato (envato is better) but there are alternatives to envato which are very close to envato and in fact they are copies of envato. Some of them are alrteady loaded with themes and users. Im not saying its equal to envato quality, but I can say its pretty close, I would say in 1 year they will offer similar quality to envato. Especially if many users now move there from here because of new support expiration here. Basicly whole czech user community which was here have opened there account already during past few months during which envato support started to expire.

43

I mostly agree with you, and I too am in favor of the new policy, but I disagree (to some extent) that the new policy brings more consistency, largely because Envato left the door open for authors not to follow it, and instead continue offering support beyond the expiration dates. They themselves said openly that authors can decide if they want to continue offering support or not, and that itā€™s fully up to them to decide. How does that bring consistency to the new policy?

44

Itā€™s heaps more consistent and clear than before the policy (where people were offering all kinds of support promises, and changing them after a buyer made a purchase, there was no ā€œofficialā€ support period and no clear record of what was promised at the time of buyer purchase).

Yes an author can choose to answer a support question after expiry (I do that, Iā€™m sure lots of others do it too). No authors are not allowed to advertise unlimited, extended or free support, that is where the consistency comes from. Buyers know what support they are entitled to and what is included in ā€œsupportā€.

Before the policy you would have one author offering lifetime support (and then delete the item 8 months later) and another offering ā€œsupportā€ without a time limit and another author offing ā€œfree installation services included with purchaseā€ and another author offering ā€œsupport for 3rd party pluginsā€ it was just a complete mess.

45

EDIT: @dtbaker types faster than me!

@onioneye I see what you mean about having the option to continue or not. My guess is that they said authors can but discourage it because they knew that some would either way.

Two ways/attempts I think it really have improved consistency are:

  • by giving both authors and buyers at least generic guidelines of what is and is not reasonable to support - something which was not there before and quite vague elsewhere.

  • preventing the ā€œlifetime supportā€ advertising which was completely unenforceable and as both of us are experienced in these forums know was always a major headache for everyone.

Hopefully some of the greyer areas around this will evolve and improve as it continues.

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46

I am yet to see anything that compares to here.

I actually emailed your suggestion yesterday to better understand what they doā€¦

I got two members of staff both giving very vague answers neither of which answered what happens if an author just ignores support which leads me to believe they have no recourse on it.

They even suggested that if I need help I hire their customisation service and pay for set up or changes - thatā€™s worse than anything here.

They clearly do have prompt and good customer service but thatā€™s understandable when a fraction of the size of here and no use if they give useless answers.

As I have said you need to be where oh are comfortable but I strongly doubt that anyone will find that the issues people have here are exclusive to envatoā€™s markets.

47

Dear dtbaker, You are seller ā€¦right. Im buyer who is here 7 years - from begginning of first envato project in past called flashden. I bought here alot of stuff. You are simply not right. Supported and non-supported item was the old system which worked before support expiration taked its place here. Seller could choose if he mark his item as supported or not-supported. If author marked his item as supported and didnt support it well, it could be clearly identified if buyer looked at rating and commentsā€¦ So if buyer wasnt silly, he bought only from author who got at least 4 stars and looked throught comments to see if author provided good or bad support. As I was using envato 7 or 8 years (dont remember properly) and always paid high attention who Im actually buying from - I had nearly zero problem with support fro items I bought here. Of course buyer who dont pay attention like me and is such silly that buy item from author with 300 negative comments and 2 star rating - such buyer is simply silly. So your note that now are items supported or not supported isnt true - it was that way in past already. Yes you had tiny % of vocal complaints because when envato engaged their support expiration they gave all current users 6 months of support. That means expirations started to expiry just couple of months ago. Most of people wasnt in need of support spo they find out in following moths. New users dont complained yet because they still are in 6 months support - so tha can ask question and also many of them didnt even noticed new support expiry or they didnt realized what it actually menas for them. After buyer find out he is about to mpay 1.000 USD to renew support on his sites - then you will see reaction. Its same like me I was aware some notice about new support expiration but didnt paid much attention tpo mit until my suppoort expired and needed help and find out what exactly it means to me as buyer - see at problems I named in my thread. So thats why I started complain now and not before. So it just starts, now you gonna see more and more frustrated buyers every month. So its not surprise you didnt see that much complaints because complaints period just stareted recently. Most are comfortable ? We have here czech community of envato users - I dont know even one who is comfortable. Also IM in touch with sellers from other eastern European countries - didnt find even one buyer who is happy ( of course some buyers will have no problem thats of course true). Happy ? Well as long time power buyer Im not happy at all and as I said already dont know even dinhle buyer who is happy - while some accept it because they have no other choice, but they are NOT happy. SO I think your laughing at the end of your comment is kinda early - lets see in another 6 months if you will be stzill laughing after your sales drop by 60% as many users move to different markets.

48

Main problem and I gonna repeat myself as I already mentioned that is that its simply kind of ā€œwarā€ between people from countries with low income and people from countries with higher or high income. Thats the real problem not only here. Of course for author from USA where common rate for programming work is 80-100 USD/hour or even more is not happy with income here, while author from Vietnam where is common rate for programmer 10USD is very happy to be here and can have envato as his main job. So in fact authors from countries like US, UK, Sweden, Norway, Germany etc are not happy here because they are used to much higher income for their work in their highly developed countries with high income where also are much higher life expenses. But authors from such countries like Poland, Czech, Sovakia, HUngary, Romania, China, Vietnam, India, Ukraine etcā€¦ are mostly happy here because making here great money in comparsion what is income in their country and even can afford support staff without problem and without any support expiration

What I wrote above about authors from different countries with different income is mirrored also by buyers from such countries. US or UK or Germany customer where average income is 3.700 EUR monthly will not complain because pay 44 USD every 6 months for support of his 80 USD theme he bought is not anything drastic and noticeable - such buyer will not complain. BUT buyer from Slovakia where average income is about 600 EUR will for sure complain because pay 44 USD for his 80 USD template every 6 months is simply not affordable. You see ? If I compare 2 persons from 2 countries if I compare my country income for me 44 USD is not in reality 44 USD in fact but more likely something like 250 USD. If you would from same country as me and should pay 250 USD every 6 months you would think same as me and most of buyers from low income countres. If you have many items you would simply go bancrupt

Problem is that Envato was formed on such people like me - from people from Eastern Europe, India, Asia and all that low income countries - thats how envato started - that was most of its community and I believe from 60% still are.

In fact market here formed on offering lowcost service for low income countries and now switching to offer lowcost service but in mean of low cost not in low income countries but hight income countries - this completely change target group of people here as most people who was here will look for different options and markets and here stay mainly people from high income countries like UK, US, Germany. Think about itā€¦

So all of you sellers who claim here how is 44 USD small fee and it cant affect anybody and its fair and good for everybody. Yes I will 100% agree with you if I live in Germany, UK or USA, Sweden etcā€¦ than your words will be correct. BUT try to have a look from my view as buyer from country with much lower income. For me in reality its not theme for 80 USD but for 400 USD - so even to buy theme here for 80 USD is on my top because over 80 USD I cant afford it and pay 44 USD for such theme every 6 moths in reality is for me NOT 44 USD but 250 USD. That means if I will have for example 10 active themes in reality it means for me to pay something like 2500 USD every 6 months. Now be honest to yourself would you be happy and can you afford pay suddenly 2.500 USD every 6 months for support ? Yes some richer people maybe, but most of ordinary people from low income countries cant simply afford it. Because ordinary people (not rich) from low income countries are most of buyers here what you think those people do - they will look for alternatives - not maybeā€¦ its for sure and its only matter of time - whenā€¦ Because of that many authors from low income countries will be forced to follow buyers from low income countries to alternative places because otherwise they will be not able to have this as main job anymore because of continual drop of sales here which will be not that fast and immediate but continuous as more and more people will realize what new support expiration in reality means for them and how much they have to payā€¦

So envato now heads in favor of people from high income countries and leaving people with low income countries far behind. BUT they forget Envato is actually formed on people from low income countries who by my opinion are here 60% of all users.

49

Hereā€™s my country list for March 2016:

image

Itā€™s worth noting Brazil at the bottom of my list accounts for roughly 2% of my income from last month whereas USA accounts for 28%.

The countries on the list above accounted for 80% of my total income in March 2016, if we assume that every other country is a ā€œlow income countryā€ (theyā€™re not all in this assumed bracket in reality) then the correct figure to be using would be 20%, but I would estimate this to be significantly lower still.

I do not wish to jump into the conversation, but Iā€™ve noticed you spout the same ā€œfactsā€ across multiple threads now, with no figures or anything to back up your claims.

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50

THank you for sharing. Its indeed interesting. Yes but you list sales for march 2016, it will be interesting to see sales list from 2014, can you share list from 2014 ? - because it can also mean that change or members already is in progress and people from low income countries already decrease their activity here. Also it can mean why envato changed their business model - because over time envato slowly changed its members base from lowincome countries to high income countries and than Envato decided simply to concentrate to much richer people and basicly throw old member base from low income countries to rubbish bin. Anyway if you compare amount of people living in US, UK, Canada and Germany - there will be always many buyers from that countries because there is actually living alot of people and they dont disappear. Hard to compare czech republic with USA - its impossible as amount of citizens is uncomparable bigger in USā€¦

Btw I bought 2 of your themes and you are only one author where I did a fault. Because I verify and research authors well before buy Im usually very happy with support, but in your case I failed. You looked as good author but both your themes I bought were removed from themeforrest ( dont know if by you or staff). I Asked you politely several times by sending messages to you and also asked in comments in your other products which were alive about it - why themes were removed and if they come back or not - I never received any reply from you - which is not very professional I thinkā€¦ I expected some kind of reply not none replyā€¦ NO offence, just my opinion.

51

The earliest I have is Feb 2015, though the data looks the same.

image

We obviously reserve the right to remove themes as we see fit, beforehand we had given you whatever support you required as I can see looking back at our logs, we answered all 4 of your support requests within 8 hours each. Iā€™m unsure how I have ā€œfailedā€ you overall, but I appreciate that the removal of an item may cause some annoyance, though just because itā€™s removed doesnā€™t stop it from working. Regardless youā€™re welcome to your opinion, even though in this case your opinion isnā€™t on my support etc. itā€™s merely because we removed the items, which is well within our remit.

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52

@tommusrhodus @freakpower

I attached an aggregated region breakdown for my sales, counting all sales (roughly 5,000 sales) since February 2015 (which is when Envato started to collect the region data), and just as it is the case with @tommusrhodus, there are none of your so-called low-income countries present.

image

And I personally do not believe that Envato started out with just low-income buyers and authors, and/or targeted those buyers specifically. It seems highly unlikely that the largest markets for webdesign (Western Europe + USA) simply ignored Envato for several years and just started buying from here during the last 2-3 years. Because as you stated yourself, population wise, they outnumber your referenced low-income countries multiple times (not counting emerging markets like India and China, of course).

While Iā€™m an author on Envato, Iā€™m also a frequent buyer (for more than 5 years now), having purchased more than 120 items here so far (scripts, plugins and themes), and so the new support policy affects me on both fronts, as a buyer AND author, as it actually does for the vast majority of authors, I would suspect.

So @freakpower, donā€™t simply assume that authors donā€™t have ā€œany skin in the gameā€ and just profit from whatever little money they might make on support renewals. In general, you seem to be repeating the same statements over and over, without providing any factual data for it, and your references to other market places do not compare to Envato either. If you really think you are entitled to unlimited support for a one-time expense, than that is of course a valid opinion to have, but that is simply not a feasible business model for any seller (no matter what is sold).

I sell scripts and plugins here on Envato, and the support part of the item costs might bring in $4 - $6 per item, after fees (themes, due to their much higher prices, obviously generate more money for support). Please explain to me how that amount is supposed to allow me to provide support forever? Even in your referenced low-income countries, that amount would at best buy an hour of support.

53

@charlie4282

Thanks for the reply!
Iā€™m well aware of the differences between ā€œENVATOā€ and the other marketplaces yes ā€œENVATOā€ is unique and yes there is a
(1) Bigger choiceā€™ thatā€™s as far as I go here?
(2) On support I really donā€™t care whether I get support centrally or from an author
(3) As for 24/7 assistance Iā€™ve found it okay and again your comment and you will need to start paying a lot? hmm!

(A) Custom logo! Hey you can go on ā€œFIVERRā€ & get one for a fiverā€™ install a theme $49 ā€œEnvatoā€ $50 & have a look at one of your authors directory themes ā€œListifyā€ ($64 basic) get all the bells and whistles spend another 2 to $300
(other examples across "envatoā€™) So really thereā€™s no argument there.

In conclusion I have enough nuance to resolve most related WordPress theme issues and of couse not of the authors making so I wonā€™t be upgrading to the support impost no value for me there.
Of course you will catch a few of the ā€œNEWBIESā€ and the sad thing is we/me wonā€™t be able to offer constructive imput to authors etc etc;
Iā€™ll probably still buy from ā€œENVATOā€ however it will now be my second place of call!

54

Totally your choice and respect your decision.

Only thing to point out is that when support comes ā€˜centrallyā€™ i.e. all from the site itself then it is, for obvious reasons, far simpler to control, manage, and so on.

When, as with envato all support comes from individual authors in different countries, timezones, languages, levels of commitment and interest and so on it is impossible for envato to control

Ironically this is the most relevant point to the general topic of support. Because of how envatoā€™s different model works (itā€™s a catch 22 as this is necessary to maintain the quality and quantity that they do) they previously had no control over what support was provided (whatever the ā€˜lifetimeā€™ claims were).

Hence why the new policy whereby buyers get 6 months guaranteed support backed by envato ** (the only site of this type online to offer this) is actually a positive move in favour of buyers**.

Itā€™s only fair that the increased expectation of both envato and authors does warrant a fee long term fee - no buyer can expect to receive a benefit and authors to absorb the costs and work for it for free.

55

Im not saying you gave bad support, I agree that your support was good. I also agree that you can remove theme or staff can do that - no problem. But I asked you several times if you can tell me if its temporarily removed ( for example for some updates) or whats the reason so I know I should wait till theme wiill be back online or if there is some security concern with theme so I know it. This happen to me with about 2 more themes from other authors that they were removed, but author always replied me with explanation, you dont - so thats thing I dont see very nice ā€¦

56

Thanks for sharing sales tab. Well the problem witzh that is that those are all countries with many citizens. For example in USA live 330.000.000 people, Germany 80.000.000 people, France 66.000.000 people, Uk 60.000.000 people. Of course those countries will be always on top. Low income countries have totally different habitants amount. For example Czech 10.000.000, Slovakia 5.000.000, Hungary 9.500.000, Poland 38.000.000 etcā€¦ To have some output from that sales tables, you have to count all low income countries into one percentage so it can be comparable. If I count all named low income above countries than 4 countries counted together have similar amount of habitants like UK. SO what table actually say - it says its uncomparable a you cant compare czech rep. with 10.000.000 with US with 330.000.000. So of course US will be probably in top 3 sales country in all sales charts from authors.

Yes I still repeat because nobody seems is willing to understad. Can you understand that 44 USD support renewal for 80USD theme have different value to German buyer and for Slovak buyer ? WHat is unnoticeable expense for german person will be very expensive from Slovak person. So for people from eastern europe for example is 44 USD not in reality 44 USD but more like 250 USD. Hope you now more understand my point. If as a buyer you suddenly should pay 250 USD every 6 months for every theme you bought its gonna be really drastic change in your business and many people cant afford that anymore. People seems to not understand that because they dont think about it this way. I understand that german author will feel crazy about me because for him 44 USD is simply nothing.

THe most big problem I have is that new policy apply to old items I bought before support expiration was announced, because as I said for me its not in reality 44 USD but every 6 months but more like 250 USD this drastically changed everything. I bought that items in good will and with some conditions where there wasnt anythyng about support expiration. If Envato behave in polite way they should offer refund money to all people who bought items before support expiration was announced. I feel simply cheated by this drastical change which i was forced to accept.

57

But there wasnā€™t anything about you being entitled to it either???

You are not ever going to get a refund for something that you were not sold.

what about items that never had any issues and you/anyone else never needed to ask for help or support? Should those get refunded too?

58

and [quote=ā€œfreakpower, post:34, topic:41756ā€]
I would rather get back to free support model or charge 15 or 20 USD instead of 40 USD so I can keep my buisiness and have at least some money for support than nothing
[/quote]

Just to understand you properly - are you really saying that if hypothetically like an envato author you had several hundred customers using the same file, all with different expectations and degrees of competence - you would still accept $20 from each for what would amount to 2 years of support and updates?

No business could sustain that.

I donā€™t think people donā€™t understand your point but itā€™s more that there has to be a trade-off and mutual respect.

Out of interest as I donā€™t do client work with files from here - when you make a website for someone using a file from here do you charge them say $59 i.e. what you paid for it? Or do you mark it up for your time?

59

The 10 countries shown in that list make up about 76% of all my sales in that period, so even when aggregating all other non-listed countries together, it would be less than 25%. So I think your assumption that low-income countries make up a larger share of sales than it might appear, seems to be wrong.

And Iā€™m not arguing that $44 for support renewal for a theme isnā€™t a lot of money ā€¦ it is a lot, even for an high-income country like mine. But the discussion is about whether support renewals itself have a valid purpose or not. And they do; how much a support renewal should cost, is a whole different conversation. Making support cost a percentage of the item price is in my opinion the wrong approach, as it severely undercuts support costs for plugins and scripts, which sell for significantly less than themes, but can easily have the same amount of support requests, based on scope and complexity of the plugin.

But Envato indirectly values the support time for a plugin/script author as less valuable, as the one for a theme author. A better approach would be to have a fixed support renewal cost, that is not tied to the item cost. How much that should be, is of course open to discussion, and a sliding scale based on author origin could be used for that. What does not make sense, in my opinion, is taking the buyer origin into account, because the author is the one who has to respond to the support request and is incurring costs for that, based on where the author lives, and not where the buyer lives.

Charging for support will always make at least one party unhappy, but to expect that authors will be available forever and for free, is just not sustainable. And besides, if you purchased an item that prior to the new support policy promised unlimited support, that author is still free to honor that promise to its buyers (I personally grandfathered all existing buyer into that, even though I never actually promised unlimited support), but there is nothing to enforce that from the buyers perspective. With a valid support package, Envato can force authors to provide support for those 6 months, which is the big incentive and advantage for said support package, when it comes to the buyer.

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60

Well every user in past marked his item as supported or not supported. I bought items from authors who marked their items as supported and in many cases they even adsvertised it ( in time I bought it) on item description ā€œunlimited free updates, free supportā€. So I bought items from atuhors who marked item as supported without saying that support is limited. NOW ā€¦support is limited - so state of item changed and is different now then it was when I bought it (and I bought it mainy for reason author decided to have his item supported - that was MAIN reason) I know this all is questionable and have also many law aspect, but from my perspective I would ( if i was envato) give unsatisfied buyers of older items right to simply request money back because product conditions in time when they bought item were now changed in very big way and item has now different conditions.